13 June 2005
CHURCH COMMISSIONERS
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked—
Ordinations
21. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): How many (a) male and (b) female ordinands will be ordained this year. [2981]
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Stuart Bell): We are expecting around 460 ordinations in 2005. Of those, around 240 are men and around 220 are women.
Chris Bryant: It is good to see my hon. Friend still in his job—while reshuffles occur, he stays put. Some 220 women will be ordained this year, so the number of women ordinands is rapidly catching up with the number of male ordinands. When does he hope to be able to bring forward legislation to abolish the stained glass ceiling that exists for women in the Church and allow the ordination of women bishops?
Sir Stuart Bell: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's remarks. As he knows:
He will know that the General Synod has been debating the elevation of women to the episcopate for some time. It noted a theological examination of the matter in February, and will consider in July whether the process of removing legal obstacles to the ordination of women to the episcopate should be set in train. His remarks and interest in the matter are well noted and will be encouraged.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): How concerned is the hon. Gentleman about the reducing number of applications for people to join the Church? Is he aware that we have been waiting a long time in Lichfield for a replacement dean? When are we going to get him—or her?
Sir Stuart Bell: It is clearly a day for quoting the Scriptures, or otherwise. As the hon. Gentleman knows:
Anticipating his later question, there is a wide range of reasons why some appointments can take longer than others. As for the appointment in Lichfield cathedral, I often think that a delay is a blessing in disguise because it allows for greater reflection and, often, a better appointment. I am sure that he will be agreeably surprised when the appointment is made.
Church Tourism
23. Ben Chapman (Wirral, South) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the potential of church tourism as a source of revenue to aid the upkeep of churches. [2984]
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Stuart Bell): Assessment is difficult, because in practice only a few cathedrals charge for entry, and entry to churches is freely available.
Ben Chapman: Is my hon. Friend aware that our churches are an important and unique national asset that is under-exploited in tourism? I commend to him the work of the North West Multi-Faith Tourism Association, and urge him to encourage the Church and other agencies to attach due importance to the role of faith tourism, not least because it can help to maintain historic churches and play a part in the local economy?
Sir Stuart Bell: I am aware of the North West Multi-Faith Tourism Association, which is one of many tourism initiatives the Church welcomes. As the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) is in the Chamber, I should mention the North Yorkshire church tourism initiative, which revealed huge scope for developing church tourism in the county. We would, of course, welcome the establishment of the post of national church tourism officer. In 2000, York minster, Canterbury cathedral and Westminster abbey were placed second, third and fourth for visitor numbers to historic properties, behind the Tower of London.
Robert Key (Salisbury)
(Con): In Salisbury, we are well aware that the success of church tourism
depends
13 Jun 2005 : Column 19
on the proper upkeep of church buildings. What estimate have the Church
Commissioners made of the impact of the proposed changes to the National Lottery
Bill that the House will consider tomorrow, as the distribution of lottery funds
could mean that the heritage lottery fund will lose up to £15 million a year?
That money could be spent on grants to our historic churches, so its loss would
have a severe impact on church tourism.
Sir Stuart Bell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He has raised the issue before, and we have looked into it. The nation's heritage needs a sensible funding partnership with the state for church buildings. He will be aware that the listed places of worship grant scheme is an example of valuable state support. The Church needs £100 million a year for the upkeep of its buildings, and we are always urging the Government to do more for us. Again, to use a Scriptural quotation:
Church Repairs
25. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): What the take-up rate is for grants to churches equivalent to VAT on church repairs. [2986]
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Stuart Bell): As at 2 February this year, 6,907 applications for VAT refunds have been made under this scheme; since 1 April 2004, 5,668 of them from churches in England. About £8 million has been paid out, £6.5 million to English churches.
Miss McIntosh: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his answer and I congratulate him on the confirmation of his appointment in this Parliament. When we discussed this issue in the last Parliament, he expressed disappointment at the take-up of grants. Is that because of the administration involved? Is he more satisfied with take-up now, and what more can right hon. and hon. Members do in their constituencies to urge churches to apply for the grant?
Sir Stuart Bell: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her kind words of congratulation on my reappointment. The Church felt that the appointment should be kept on the basis of better the devil you know. I hope that the press do not pick that up.
Since my earlier statement about take-up, I am happy to say that almost £980,000 was paid out under the scheme in February this year, which suggests that the scheme is picking up. We welcomed the Chancellor's statement in March that the scheme would continue until March 2009, and would be extended to memorials.
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab): It is always a pleasure to listen to my hon. Friend, and it is a delight to hear him answer our difficult questions. Does he accept that this is a way in which mediaeval buildings can receive a positive boost? Would he at least consider whether any further work needs to be done on publicising the advantages of the scheme?
Sir Stuart Bell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her comments. She is perfectly right. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in March:
We should continue to try to get the word out through the Church press and other press that the scheme is valuable for church upkeep and repairs, and I welcome her suggestion.